Caris Amell is Neutral Good. She yearns to be Lawful Good but as a Warden, she had to make some questionable decisions.
Imogen Aeducan is Lawful Evil. She was given a goal and she’d crush anyone in the way with no qualms : there is not too great a cost to stop the Blight.
Elle Hawke started as Chaotic Good. She never meant to gleefully ignore laws and morals but never hesitated to take things into her hands when she deemed it necessary. Influence of people around her, plus witnessing firsthand what happens when everyone does as they see fit, compelled her to turn Neutral Good.
Rick Hawke started as Chaotic Good. He had a good heart and meant well, but his decisions did not turn well for both his family and Kirkwall. The way he washed his hands from the mess he created and fled from the consequences to pursue his own personal goals indicates he probably turned Chaotic Neutral.
Ophelia Trevelyan is Lawful Neutral. As Inquisitor, she does her best to keep her personal feelings out of the way to do what she was tasked to do, as fairly as possible.
Liv Trevelyan is Lawful Good. She’s a faithful idealist and sticks to her beliefs while leading the Inquisition, whether it’s in the best interest of the organization or not.
@FlamesOfChaos13 @ZehnWaters My very bad ! I edited my answer. Indeed I refered to the well. I first typed "betrayed Vivienne" thinking of the heart and my brain followed with "betrayed Morrigan", and I'm a moron so I didn't even see it it when editing the first time (this is what happens when you both skim read and proof read, bad things happen !)
Achievement hunting made me go through all the worst possible decisions (or close) in DAO and DA2. Even though I never kept those saves (either by reload or just deleting the characters altogether) I guess I can't claim I've never done it.
First thing I did for the very first time yersterday was to make Feynriel tranquil in DA2, so I can cross that off my list...
In DAI though, plenty of things I never did and probably never will :
- Romanced Solas
- Let the Chargers die
- Allow Celene to be assassinated (Gaspard & Briala)
- Exiled the Wardens
- Executed Blackwall
- Gave Vivienne the wrong heart
- Let Morrigan drink off the well
- Supported Cassandra for the Divine Election
- Had a non human Inquisitor
(and probably more I can't think of)
@Zehnwaters16 Very true, I totally agree the Wardens were not the only one affected, I just chimed in because most other retcons had been mentionned in the thread already but them.
Concerning Anora knowing, I've always imagined that Cailan being a little obsessed with the Wardens, he would have known more about them than anyone else outside the order, given he probably had scholars and historians in his court bent on gathering information on them. Of course, he did not know about any secrets but there could be records of people (probably not commoners, but like Jory, knights, who are not complete nobodies in terms of social backgrounds) who went to join the Wardens and "mysteriously" disappeared/reported dead before even being seen in their ranks. He could have guessed joining the Warden implied an initiation that could be fatal (a dangerous mission, hazing, or something else).
I did all the romances with other characters but it was mostly to try other origins and for achievement hunting. I don't consider the characters in those playthroughs "my" characters per say.
I voted Tabris because I had a brain freeze and confused City and Dalish name origins, I meant Mahariel.
Funny enough, I think Aeducan is one the most inclined to go for the Ultimate Sacrifice, but I guess it depends on how Aeducan is played.
My Aeducan was a ruthless biatch (to Alistair eyes at least), but she had her very own vision of dwarven honor and pride. She merely thinks the end justify the means.
She wiped the mages because being a dwarf, she doesn't care for magic; she values trained swords more (thus why she also disreguarded Morrigan's ritual),
She kept the anvil because sacrifices are required to end the blight and to restore dwarves to their ancient glory, and she's willing to sacrifice her own life to do it.
In a way, she thinks she's the only one who understand the Grey Warden motto in her ragtag company : In Death, Sacrifice. The Wardens are not that far apart from the Legion of the Dead, so the concept is something she understands clearly.
She dies fighting the Archdemon but she isn't going to let anyone steal her moment of showing meek surfacers what being a dwarf of noble blood means.
(And let's be honest, she is an ass, no one will miss her).
In DAO, it is painted as a honorable order. Sure, most of it we learn through the eyes of Alistair who is starstruck with Duncan but everyone else sees the Wardens as ancient heroes deserving of songs and ballads (Cailan, Bryce Cousland, Wynne, Irving, Eamon, well, almost everyone actually, even Flemeth but we know her, she could be lying).
It could be explained by the fact that there are very few Wardens in Ferelden in DAO - so people might be remembering them wrong. The only thing that might lean towards what will come next is Warden's Peak.
Comes DA2 and the Wardens already seem different from what we remembered and knew (Anders POV, Aveline and Cassandra's side remarks, meeting with the Wardens in Act2, Legacy...) and DAI deals the final blow at presenting the order closer to a cult of fanatics (Corypheus or not).
Not saying it was a bad choice, I actually love the Wardens to be controversial instead of the fabulous heroes of ore fighting evil bla-bla-yaaaawn. But it still felt like a U-Turn.
@Zakkarius We know what happened to them through the Warden contact of Hawke (Alistair/Stroud/Loghain) : they were called by Clarel to join her orlesian Wardens in the Western Approach.
@AlexMarie10 My bad then. I'm not a specialist when it comes to technicalities :)
Depends on the Hawke I'm playing.
My "main" Hawke when playing DA2 certainly does not think Meredith is right.
But she trusts (maybe naively) that many templars are similar to Thrask (sworn to protect mages and refusing to demonize them) and to a lesser extent Cullen (even if he distrusts magic users, he is reasonable and honorable, and does not condone sheer brutality nor blind opression anymore). She also has issues with blood magic after the murder of her mother, so it's another reason to make her lean more toward the templars.
In my HCed version of the trilogy however, the Hawke that is known to be the Champion sided with the mages. Mostly because his sister Bethany has been forced in the Circle of Kirkwall and because he is in a relationship with Merrill.
I could not have formulated it better myself @TealOmega .
I also see blood magic as a tool. A most controversial one, but as much as any conventional weapon could be used to either defend or oppress.
As much as I love the Warden, and to a lesser extent the Inquisitor, both of them feel like Mary Sue characters long before the end of their arc. They are just... too much, and the more they do, the less I feel close to them.
I've always loved the feeling that Hawke started like a regular Joe, but also kind of ended up as one too. Sure he/she became the Champion, but somehow, it felt so accidental, and the title was given so relanctutely by Meredith, that it felt Hawke was only a Champion in name and never a hero on the grandscale. Just a guy/gal at the right place at the right moment (or wrong, considering how things turned).
It always made him/her way more human to me than the Warden and Inky ever did.
No argument with you here, I completely agree. I just explained what my reasonement to look for clues about the Calling in the previous long posts I wrote came from (and why I derived so much from King Alistair).
My initial question (why is there no mention of King Alistair being affected by the Calling) stemed from remembering something wrong : in my memory, every Warden in Orlais AND Ferelden were affected.
Turns out I was wrong, after checking several saves and all dialogues related to the Calling, only orlesians Wardens are stated to have been affected. The fereldan Wardens only seemingly disappeared after they answered the call of Clarel to join her forces in Adamant Fortress.
Knowing this, King Alistair may or may not be affected, but there no reason to believe he is with certainty (which I was !). Like you said, I've come to think the best option is to HC it (which I did too ;))
Fair enough. That was actually my first thought too.
I know I rambled through this thread and deviated a lot from King Alistair to speak more about Warden Alistair and the Wardens in general. But only because all the information we get from the fake Calling are through them, and since we have no interaction with King Alistair, everything we can conjecture about him and whether he feels the Calling or not has to be derived from his "warden iteration".
Sorry if it felt too much of a digression from the original topic.
Corypupus' prison was in the Free Marches, and under the guard of Marchers Wardens (Larius and Janeka are both Marchers if I remember well, and Larius is the Warden Commander of the region).
Hmm. Now you just reminded me that the Free Marches Wardens actually knew about Coryphyphy ability to simulate the Calling. Sure, most of the Wardens we see in the DLC die and/or end up being controlled. Could be why the information never reached Clarel.
But what about Stroud ? What about you Jean-Marc, you never thought the darkspawn magister called Corysomething, locked away in the mountains, that could tricked the Wardens who approached his prison into feeling the Calling could be the very reason Orlesians Wardens went crazy ? Silly Jean-Marc. Oh well, I guess he did : if he is Hawke's contact, he is the one piecing it together after all.
But concerning the fereldan order, they were called to the Western Approach in Orlais (and thus disappeared) seemingly after Cory's Calling began (Clarel's order was already affected by then, that's the reason she summoned the Ferelden Wardens), so they were most likely the last to be affected, if they ever actually were. I did not remember that either until I replayed the dialogues with Warden Alistair.
@DraculaCronqvist Ah ah, I realized in other threads that you're not a fan of Alistair ;)
That's your take as a player, or an outsider (or from a non-noble Warden perspective). Loghain being part of the nobility/royalty system, he would never question Cailan position as King.
Not saying you ever said so, just remarking that JustKelso93 probably stands from Loghain point of view.
Here is the question : to who should Loghain be most loyal : his King or his country ?
It's not a trick question. But to me, that simple question also shows that nothing is black or white, especially not Loghain.
Hey there again @Shenachie !
I see it exactly as you do concerning Warden Alistair just passing through Kirkwall. As you said, Anders could have got them in touch too after the Qunari Uprising (or one of Hawke's siblings, if made Grey Warden).
Concerning how he learned about Corypypy, he explains it : Hawke "defeated" him, the Wardens in Weisshaupt heard of it but considered the case closed. Alistair will chose to enquire further nevertheless.
I loved Alistair's line when the Inquisitor asks him why his lover the Hero has gone through her quest alone and he was left to investigate Coryfufus "Oh, there was a discussion. Believe me." But for a friendly Warden, I actually love your idea of rock-paper-scissors. Or maybe a game of Wicked Grace (the Hero cheated, of course !) :D
I completely agree with you concerning both Alistair and the Hero being stationed in Ferelden. It what's makes the more sense to me too, I was just trying to find reasons why Alistair could have been in Orlais before being summoned by Clarel.
Concerning your questions, this is exactly what rubs me the wrong way. Not all Wardens throughout Thedas are affected by the fake Calling (we do know that the First Warden in Weisshaupt seems to know nothing of what is happening with Coryphyphy since either Alistair, Stroud, Loghain or Hawke, depending on who survived the Fade, states they will go there to report to the head of the Wardens).
It is stated, including by Warden Alistair, that "all the Wardens in Orlais began to hear the Calling", but following that, all southern Wardens were summoned by Clarel (so Orlais + Ferelden).
So it does seem fereldan Wardens were not affected by Corypupus (which then would explain why King Alistair is oblivious to it) but then..... why did they not realize something was amiss when they arrived in Adamant Fortress ?
To be fair, I just realize there could be an explanation, pretty close to what you are saying : with the Hero of Ferelden out on his/her own, another senior Warden would have been named "XO" (not sure what the Wardens term would be for it.... let's say acting Commander). In any case, after joining Clarel, agreeing or not to her plans, they would have had to follow her orders : in the absence of the Hero, Warden Commander Clarel is the only Warden Commander around, and her decisions would overule any fereldan acting commander.
That would also explain why Warden Alistair is now a fugitive and branded traitor. I always found strange he was the only one to react to Clarel. But I forgot that the Wardens are a military order, and refusing to follow orders in any army is a pretty big deal ("Armies are funny that way" as the Ostagar prisonner would say). As far as the Wardens are concerned, Alistair is a coward and a desertor who refused to do his duty : do anything at any cost to end the Blight.
Wow, there we go. It feels like a decent explanation for why King Alistair is unaffected when Warden Alistair is not.
I just finished yet another playthrough of DAO and made hardened Alistair king. (can't help but wish the fairy tale ending for my fem!Cousland, and hardened Alistair actually wants to be king, or so he says) but now I find myself wanting to go back on my choice. Sure, ten years ago before DA2 and DAI, it kinda looked like the best outcome.
But for the story coherence in the following games (and let's face it, MOAR Alistair down the line), having him staying a Warden feels indeed the most right.
And now I am thinking of the Fade outcome in DAI and my heart is broken. Up until now, i had different worldstates, but none with both Warden Alistair romancing an alive Hero, and my canon Hawke... *sobs*
You actually make some fair point but a few things still bother me.
So it made me wonder, perhaps I remembered things wrong about Warden Alistair. I did check a save, and I was indeed wrong about one thing : the Hero of Ferelden. According to Alistair, the Hero went on a quest to end the real Calling, not the fake one started by Coryphyphy. So he/she left BEFORE it all started. My bad then, I guess I just remembered the Hero looking to end the Calling and mixed up things.
So Alistair heard about Corypupus probably through Hawke when he was in the Free Marches. He starts investigating, then he and the Hero get that lead to end the “curse of the Wardens”, the Calling. They separate : Alistair keeps on investigating, and the Hero departs for somewhere away far to the West, so possibly far beyond even Orlais (where to exactly ? Orlais and more specifically the Western Approach are the more western “civilized” lands we know of. How interesting… but I digress !). After the Hero departs, every Warden in Orlais starts to feel the Calling (Cory’s one).
And that includes Alistair.
THEN Clarel summons all the southern Wardens to Adamant Fortress, including Ferelden Wardens.
Another digression : what region (and which commander) Alistair and the Hero depend from ?
I'm pretty sure that if the Hero survived, it is implied that he/she is the de facto Commander of the Grey in Ferelden (wheter or not you played Awekening with the Warden of DAO).
Warden Alistair dialogues concerning a romanced Hero implies than they spend most of the last decade together, when they are not forced to each go their way for specific missions. Such a relationship would be complicated if Alistair was an Orlesian Warden and the Hero the commander in Ferelden. I think it's not a strecth to assume Alistair is still a Ferelden Warden.
But then why would Warden Alistair already be in Orlais when the fake calling started ? Did his investigation led him there ?
So back to our King Alistair. Assuming he’s out of the reach of the fake Calling, that means the Wardens in Amaranthine were too. So they are summoned in Orlais, and what ? Are they affected by Coryry’s spell as soon as they are in his reach ? Are they sacrificed/tied to demons first by Clarel and Erimond before they can ask “What’s the deal with you guys hearing the Calling because we don’t !” ?
Opens up a new can of worms...
Ferelden Wardens not reacting to Clarel desperate plans if they were not affected now seems far more overreaching than thinking the fake Calling affected Ferelden too (especially since Warden Alistair IS affected himself).
Or... it could also "simply" be an oversight.
I must say, the complete grey area surrounding King Alistair in DAI has made me think the most coherent outcome for him in DAO is actually to keep him unhardened and let him renounce the crown.
Especially since Warden Alistair seems far more resolved than King Alistair in DA2 and DAI (sure, we don't see enough of King Alistair in DAI to judge, but somehow, even DA2 Warden Alistair always strikes me as more grizzled, wise and actually hardened then DA2 King Alistair).
@Engraved Rogue What an odd and yet revealing thing to say. I actually laughed !
Edit : the post I was referring to here was deleted. Moving on.