Legacy by a mile.
Seems kinda unfair to include Awakening alongside the other DLC, as it's an expansion, not a typical DLC. That aside, it is the clear winner here.
^I'm aware of that. I gave my opinion. I was merely pointing out that Pppopopooio was performing whataboutism when he tried to shift the conversation from Samson to the Inquisition, or about "not in dealing absolutes" or however he wants to label his misdirection.
^Which is also whataboutism. The topic isn't about whether or not there's pure evil, it's about Samson.
^Whataboutism. This thread isn't about how evil the Inquisition is or isn't.
^That's another really good Iron Bull/Varric exchange. I almost picked that one myself, as it's funnier than the one I listed. But the Solas foreshadowing is just so clever, I had to mention it.
I like Varric and Isabela's banter in DA 2. This is probably my favorite one:
"Varric: I shit you not, Rivaini, it was this big.
Isabela: There's no way. Impossible! I've had hundreds of those in my hands, and they're never that size.
Varric: Would I lie about something so critical?
(Next line is dependent on third party member)
Anders: I can't stand it anymore—what are you two talking about?
Aveline: I'm afraid to ask, but... what are you two going on about?
Carver: What is wrong with you two? Can't you ever have a conversation that isn't dirty?
Hawke: What are you two talking about?
Varric: We're discussing knives, of course. Well, daggers, technically. I never remember the difference.
Varric: Why? What did you think we were talking about?"
In Inquisition, there's a particular exchange between Varric and Iron Bull that's both excellent foreshadowing and a fun poke at DA 2:
"Iron Bull: Hey, Varric, I was reading your stuff... Where do your bad guys come from?
Varric: Well, some of them come from Tevinter and some are Ben-Hassrath spies... but I like the stories where the villain was the man beside you the whole time. The best villains don't see themselves as evil. They're fighting for a good cause, willing to get their hands dirty.
Iron Bull: All right, that's really deep and all, but I meant where do the bad guys come from literally? The way you write it, it's like they just fall from the sky and land on top on the hero.
Varric: I like to leave some things to the reader's imagination."
^^"Killing the Archdemon itself doesn't end the blight."
Permanently killing it does. My point is that it's the archdemon which needs to be eliminated, not necessarily the Old God's soul.
"A GW needs to take the killing blow because, only their tainted body can attach to an OGS when an Archdemon dies. This is why they created and went through with the Joining. Because they witnessed and/or been told that when an Archdemon would die, it would come right back. Either a Grey Warden must take the kill shot; and have the OGS destroyed when it joins with that Warden or cleanse/purify it with Morrigan's ritual to end a blight. The OGS itself needs to be dealt w/one way or the other."
None of this is contradictory to anything I've said. I know about all this and you know that I know about all this. Why are you still harping on it?
"The only people that know about the ritual, being generous, that would be around ten people, HoF, Flemythal, Morrigan, Alistair/Loghain, the HoF's romance and maybe some of the Wardens that the HoF recruited. It is false to give the presumption that the whole Order knows about this. They don't. For the overwhelmingly vast majority of Wardens, the knowledge is that an Archdemon needs to be killed by a Grey Warden so the OGS attaches to that Warden. This destroys that OGS and the blight is ended."
True, and so what? I never said that the majority of the order knows about the DR.
"If the ritual is performed, and as Morrigan says, that it would be a beacon for the OGS to attach too and there is no distance that would effect that. Then there is no logical reason why a Grey Warden needs to take the kill shot or even be present."
Well, the archdemon still needs to die, and wardens are still the best at killing darkspawn. Plus its their duty to kill it. And the Warden is one of the best fighters in Thedas currently, and possibly ever.
"Morrigan's embyro would be a 5G network, a Warden's body would be a 4G network and any Darkspawn's body would be a 3G network."
"I think it is hokey that a Grey Warden has to score the kill shot for the Archdemon to perish."
It is, if that's the case. I'm not sure that it is. They might just need to be nearby, in order to ensure that the Old God's soul doesn't go to some darkspawn. If there are thousands of 3G networks around and the nearest 4G network is hundreds of miles away, a 3G network might still make the connection first.
"It would make more sense that whomever Warden who's Joining included Archdemon blood, was closest to the Archdemon when it died, that is whose body/soul that the OGS would attach to."
This might actually be how it works. If it isn't, if the Old God's soul does in fact go into whoever killed it regardless of distance, that is dumb.
"If it is a bug. Then why does Morrigan have unique dialogue for doing the ritual with her and then choosing not taking her for the Archdemon fight?"
Are you sure that's the case? You might be right, though. In that case, it'd be a weird writing error. The even in Origins, the epilogue slides appear to depend on solely if the DR was performed or not.
"Is every decision/action that you take in the Keep?"
No, and that's a fair point.
"Do you believe that BioWare is infallible?"
Kinda? It's their world.
"My point was, since Morrigan did the ritual for the OGS to attach to her body (embyro), shouldn't she be the one to take the kill shot against the AD?"
No, because that 5G network overrides all the wardens' 4G networks. But I suppose maybe she does need to at least be nearby, or at least not miles away? Maybe that's why you encountered that bit of dialogue - Morrigan is concerned that if she's not relatively close to the archdemon (but not necessarily closer than the wardens), it might not work. She's never done the ritual before, so even she's not 100% on any of this. Why take the extra risk?
"I doubt they put much thought into that cutscene. Just something that is a one size fits all solution for any scenario, looking cool and cinematic."
Well, making a single one size fits all scene is cheaper than making two scenes.
"The soul isn't invisible either. We have seen that little blue-ish orb when Flemythal extracts it from Kieran."
That's true. I guess it just goes over to Morrigan off screen or something.
"There was a woman who warned Alistair that don't be surprised if we wake up with each other. Morrigan could shapeshift as Wynne."
That would be hilarious. A shapeshifted Wynne seducing Alistair. Pretty sure that Wynne was just teasing him with that remark, though.
"Shapeshifting as Anora could also be an option."
If she could do that, why not just kill Anora, install herself as queen, and convince Alistair that Kieran is just a normal "product" of their marriage?
"Everyone is trying to figure out how the protagonist of DA:4 can be powerful enough to face Solas. If they did it this way, the hero/anti-hero of DA:4 could have been the offspring of Morrigan (a powerful mage) and either the HoF or Alistair, *who has a legacy bloodline.* That child would also have an OGS attached to them as well. Don't you think that person would be at least reasonably powerful enough to have a chance against Solas?"
This would've been really cool, although it would limit race options to just human or half-dwarf.
"I think she is capable enough to go through with it this way. *As she herself said, "I'm many things. But I won't be the mother that you were to me.) I don't think that she is pure evil. Sure, her intent was not getting close to anyone and getting the OGS at the end. But, if she comes to like and care for you, and her actions will now the save the life of the person she cares for or likes. I don't know if that is pure evil."
It messes with the notion of consent in a way that I'm not sure she would be willing to do. Shapeshifting aside, Morrigan's a mage. If she really wanted to, she could paralyze the Warden or Alistair/Loghain and just straight up rape them. She does not, because she has some limits.
"While it is rapey, it also does save the life of the Warden who takes the kill shot. Right or wrong?"
Pretty clearly very wrong.
"Even if it was wrong for her to do it, would you still be alright with her doing it?"
No, I would not. I don't think I would like her anymore, if she pulled something like that.
"Why I think Morrigan is capable of doing it. Besides her personality and everything that she has said about one should take the action that acquires the most power for themselves. Well, her whole point of tagging along with the HoF and Alistair is exactly this. To acquire and preserve the OGS."
Maybe? She can't shapeshift into other people anyway, so the whole issue is kinda irrelevant.
"Since this is her (or Flemythal's) plan, why in thee hell would she self-sabotage herself and tell the person her plan that might make it fail?"
Because there are some lines she won't cross? I have no doubt that Flemythal would cross such a line, though.
"I think it was bonkers that Morrigan revealed her plan to the HoF. It would make more sense in my mind that she would first try to deceive either the HoF or Alistair/Loghain by shapeshifting as someone else."
There's a middle ground between "tell them everything" and "disguise myself as their lover into order to trick them". Seduction. She could've just tried to sleep with one of the wardens, without mentioning the ritual. That route probably wouldn't work on Alistair, though.
^I assume the intent in that situation is to trick Alistair. Alistair would think Morrigan was the Warden, so he wouldn't be intentionally cheating on her.
I agree with you that Morrigan essentially committing identity theft in order to trick a warden into bed with her is creepy AF. And as I said, I don't think it's something she would stoop to.
^What about Inquisition?
^"Sure, to destroy the OGS, a Grey Warden needs to kill the Archdemon. The blight ends not when the Archdemon dies, but when the tainted Old God Soul is destroyed."
This is proved to be untrue, if the Dark Ritual is performed. The Archdemon dies but the Old God's soul is persevered. Yet the blight ends. Hence my point that the grey wardens' goal is to kill the archdemon, not destroy the Old God's soul.
"I did the ritual w/Morrigan once then I didn't take her with the party. She said something to the effect "then why go through the effort of doing the ritual because it wouldn't work if she wasn't there." I'm pretty sure I died when she was't there."
There's no option in the Keep for "performed the ritual but Morrigan wasn't present for the final battle". And this is the epilogue you get if the DR is performed:
“As good as her word, Morrigan disappeared once the archdemon was slain. Someone of Morrigan's description was seen traveling alone months later, heading west through the Frostback Mountains... and she may even have been with child.”
The page on the Morrigan's Ritual quest says this:
"The choice made during this quest will affect the outcome and Epilogue. If Morrigan's offer is accepted, then, regardless of whom the ritual was performed with, the Warden will automatically strike the killing blow against the Archdemon and will survive. Otherwise they will die unless choosing another Grey Warden to perform the final blow, in which case that Warden (Secret Companion or Alistair) will die."
It seems likely that you either remember incorrectly or that you encountered a bug.
"Her embryo is in her body is it not?"
In her uterus, which I believe isolates embryos and fetuses from the mother's cardiovascular system. Anyway, what's your point?
"I imagine a good indicator of it being DEAD is when that burst of essence leaves the Archdemon."
"If her embryo, in her body, is the beacon. Whatever essence that is, I would still think it would be going in her direction."
Which it did. We just don't see that because it's invisible. (Real reason: because that cutscene is universal and doesn't account for the DR.)
"She can seduce either Alistair/Loghain or Riordan. For example, Female Warden in a romance with Alistair. She shapeshifts as the Female Warden and waits for Alistair in his room."
Riordan isn't an option. A female Warden can ask about using him instead of Alistair, and Morrigan says that wouldn't work because he's been tainted for too long. Personally, I think that's kinda dumb. Riordan would've been the perfect way for the DR to have been completed for Wardens who opt not to do it.
Morrigan shapeshifting into the Warden would work for female Wardens in a relationship with Alistair. But it wouldn't work for female Wardens in a relationship with Leliana or Zevran, or no one.
"I think the James Bond Villain monologue is dumb and unnecessary on her part. I understand its function though, gotta let players make their own decisions."
My interpretation is that she tells the Warden about the true purpose of the Dark Ritual because he deserves to know. She's not pure evil.
On that note, I'm not sure that Morrigan would shapeshift into someone else in order to trick the Warden (or Alistair) into having sex with her. That's kinda rapey. Morrigan does have some scruples.
^"It does mention Dumat. Dumat = Old God. Anyone can kill an archdemon, (Which the Non-Warden Anders soldiers did.) What ends the Blight is when that Old God's soul is destroyed attaching to the GW who scores the kill shot or Morrigan's Sex Magic Ritual cleansing/purifying that tainted Old God's soul."
Did I say any of that was incorrect? You're not paying attention to what I'm writing. What I said was that the -purpose-, PURPOSE, P-U-R-P-O-S-E of a grey warden killing the archdemon is to KILL the archdemon, permanently. The fact that the Old God's soul is destroyed is simply HOW that is achieved. And as it turns out, that is not the only way to kill an archdemon (permanently).
"If a GW scored a kill shot on an Archdemon w/a ballista from 300 yards away, would that OGS really attach to that Warden? Even if there where Grey Wardens closer to the Archdemon than the one who scored the kill shot?"
Maybe, maybe not. Does that matter? As long as a grey warden dies in the process, the Old God's soul is destroyed.
"If you do the ritual w/Morrigan, but you don't take her to the Archdemon fight. Then the ritual doesn't work."
I don't think that's true. Granted, I've never tried that, but I'm pretty sure it's incorrect. Morrigan says that Urthemiel's soul would "seek the child like a beacon". Somehow the DR itself must make it so that the Old God's soul "prefers" the tainted embryo over even grey wardens. Distance shouldn't matter.
"So one's proximity to the Archdemon when it dies seems important."
It isn't. We know this for a fact, because Cory (who resurrects himself in the same way) can do so at any distance. Morrigan says as much, if the Inquisitor suggests somehow isolating Cory from his mind controlled grey wardens.
"Since Morrigan prepared her body to be the host, shouldn't she have been the one to score the kill shot?"
Her body isn't the host, the embryo is. It's unclear if actually getting the kill shot is important. It could be that in the past, no grey warden has survived the battle with the archdemon. Even if there are multiple grey wardens at the scene, the others could just happen to die of normal injuries.
Anyway, I imagine that even if the archdemon is taken out from a distance, the grey wardens always do what happens in Origins: they go up to the body and insure it is dead by destroying it's brain or decapitating it. You wouldn't want to just assume that the archdemon died from a ballista shot only to have it be merely injured and get up later.
"During the cutscene when a Warden kills the Archdemon, shouldn't that Spirit beam go into Morrigan if you do the Ritual?"
I don't think that's a spirit beam. I think it's just magical energy that's released upon the archdemon's death.
"f a person *in the world of Thedas* that you (also a person of Thedas) are familiar with and who you also find extremely attractive, approached you and said, "Do you want to participate in a Sex Magic Ritual with me? Or "Do you want to participate in a Dark Ritual with me? Which one would you be more interested in?"
Me personally? Neither. I'm not interested in getting anyone pregnant. If she didn't go into detail, I'd ask for more information first, in either case. For all I know, either one of them could result in my death, or something worse.
"With regards to biology, I don't know if a humanoid mammal is more complex than a mythological mammal/bird hybrid."
Embryos are always just a small cluster of relatively undifferentiated cells, regardless of the creature. Everything starts out as a single cell which then divides a number of times over a series of days or weeks. Sometime during that process the cells begin to differentiate. But in this case it's been less than 24 hours. The embryo is likely significantly less developed than the ones inside the griffin eggs.
"It isn't impossible that Kieran could get the soul back. All it takes is a willing host right?"
Kieran willingly gave it up, though.
"There is a dialogue option in which you can ask Morrigan if she can shapeshift as a different person. She says no. This should have been a lie from Morrigan. After you get the info from Riordan, basically saying that whoever kills the AD will die. You go back to your room, who is waiting for you in your room or in Alistair/Loghain's room? It would be Morrigan, BUT, she is shapeshifted as a female romance option for either the Alistair/Loghain or HoF. *She could remain as herself if a Warden romanced her. I'm not sure why Morrigan had a James Bond Villain monologue for that sequence.* This way the OGB is part of the ongoing story no matter what and it just won't be some throw away decision."
That still wouldn't work for female Wardens, or Wardens without a romance. It could work for gay/bi male wardens, though. (If she can shapeshift into humans, there's no reason why she can't shapeshift into a man).
"That when a heterosexual man has learned that they are most certainly going to die and an attractive women wants to have sex w/them. That a man will not turn them down."
I would, assuming she tells me about the fact that she intends to get pregnant. That's probably an unusual reaction, though.
"The soul finds a new host. Would that new host be immune from the taint then? Or could the body of the host become tainted but Urthemiel's sou itself would be immune to the taint?"
Probably not, in either case.
"I always assumed that Flemythal sent Morrigan the Old God's soul and Solas took Mythal's soul."
She doesn't. Flemythal sends something through the Eluvian regardless of whether or not Urthemiel's soul was saved. So whatever she sent, it can't have been his soul. If she still had his soul "with" her at that time Solas likely has it now. But she could have done something with it before that scene. Maybe she stored it somewhere, maybe she sent it to Morrigan or Yavana or another daughter (if she has one). Maybe it went back to Kieran. We don't know the status of Urthemiel's soul post that cut scene, and we might never learn it.
^That's not for mages. AWs can use it, but it's not really the best armor for them, as Juggernaut's elemental resistance bonuses are wasted one them. It's better to give that to Alistair or Oghren or Sten and use another armor set for the Warden (or whoever your AW is), like Cailan's armor.
^It could also be a used as a disguise - a handy talent for an apostate.
^That's also true. Both terms could be derived from some third thing.
Do you mean battlemage? If you do then I have no idea, as I only get that specialization for the Stoic passive.
If that's not what you mean then can be more spefic please?
^Kieran might be immune to the taint now. Isn't Fiona immune? Even if she is, that doesn't necessarily mean that he is, of course.
I doubt that Kieran knew how to shapeshift into a dragon. Apparently you need special knowledge for that, as not even Morrigan could do it before getting Well powers. He might know how to shapeshift into other animals, though.
^Oh that one of the elven slaves took the name of the place? Could be. I don't know why a former slave would do that, but it could be. Maybe it was something that was done to them? Some people's last names were originally the names of whatever town or village they were born in. Like in the middle ages, someone would be called "John of Townsburg" and then later his descents would go by Townsburg. So it could be something like that.
The name could be a coincidence. Or it could be that the quarry was named after an ancestor of the Mahariels for some reason. I don't know why the Tevinters would name their quarry after an elven family - perhaps the name predates them? Maybe it comes from a time before humans came to Thedas, during the elven Silver Age (after the Veil, before Tevinter).
^Actually they left because that was the deal the Arishok made, and the Qunari were honor-bound to follow it. They were still acting under the instructions of the dead Arishok; they were obeying him posthumously.
You are correct in that the Antaam probably has very clear lines of succession, so they would never be without a leader. But Shenachie's overall point about the Qunari soldiers' lack of flexibility is also correct.