132 Votes in Poll
@FlamesOfChaos13 the Divine Cassandra. It's part of her slide. So presumably whatever changes she made specifically.
@Zehnwaters16 No the status quo of which Divine Pre-Rebellion and Inquisition? Justinia was Pro-Mage. Beatrix I don't know. What does the Opposition believe is the Status Quo? What Policies are they against? A New Circle or New Order or Rebuilt Seekers or Cass being undiplomatic or Anti-Game? Any and All of these are possible reasons for dissent and rebellion. None were mentioned outright just same vague notion of Status Quo.
Flames of chaos the problem with this entire shitstorm is this. Even if you choose to free the mages. The game just can't let you have that small victory. Oh no writer's pet Vivienne has to stick her big fat nose into everything. Whether she's Divine or not. She fearmongers her way to the top.
Then she uses the circle mages to attack the college of Enchanters. Because again Vivienne is a major writers pet and always gets her way. I find it odd that neither Leliana or Cassandra interfere.
What i like is that if Viv is the divine. Cassandra walks out because, Viv is a tyrannical dictator. It says mages have more freedom under Vivienne's rule. Howeever a caged bird is still a caged bird. Maybe the mages don't get raped or made tranquil at the drop of a hat. On the other hand the choice is much the same. Join the circle or be hunted as an apostate. Vivienne only wants power to manipulate the system. Not completely change it. To her it's acceptable to kill anyone that doesn't conform.
While I don't agree with Anders methods. i think Vivienne was a lunatic. When she said that when the Circles rebelled after Anders' crusade. They declared themselves as supporters of mass murder.
Maybe it's set up like this to create drama. Or maybe the developers are pro Chantry. Either way the new Divine is kind of irrelevant.
Mages get raped ????
They don't explicitly say it. However remeber the Templar in Dragon age 2. i don't remember his name. He's in one of Anders' quests. There's a mage that is running away. She's afraid of being made tranquil. She's like I'll do anything you want.
He says yes once your tranquil you'll do anything i want.
He says this in a rather sadistic sounding tone. Add to that the fact most Templars generally hate mages. We shouldn't be surprised. For example after gaining the Templar alliance in Inquisition. That one Templar guy is complaining about mages. He's quite certain they committed some offense he can rough them up for.
Also that one chantry sister didn't mince words coomplaining about Templars. She said she didn't see honorable knights and scary mages. She saw jaillers and prisoners. The jailers learned cruelty and the prisoners learned fear. So they're telling you this happens without actually saying the word.
This is the institution Vivienne wishes to reinstate . Although she would be in charge and make changes. Don't kid yourself it's not going to be better than the original.
Neither would the versions under the other two.
Templars have gotten way with abuse of power so long. Most don't see it as abuse anymore. To them that's how life works. Since none of these Divine actually change it. I can't say one is better than the other.
@Chaos9059763 "Since none of these Divine actually change it. I can't say one is better than the other."
Really? I thought they all changed it at least a little, though some more than others.
Leiliana changes it the most drastically: she dismantles the Circles entirely, and two more organizations show up in its place. One of those is the College of Enchanters, which is run by Fiona and presumably loses a lot of the practices you object to. The other organization claims to be the Circle reborn, but almost certainly can't compel members to be part of it the way the old Circles could, and therefore is probably going to need to change drastically if it wants to keep its members.
Vivienne is a Circle mage with a very specific idea of how the Circle should work: she acknowledges that the templars went over the line in way too many cases, and believes that being sent to the Circle should be as much an opportunity as it is a restriction, the way it was in her experience. If she gets control of the Chantry, her first step is to take complete control of the system and make sure everyone is clear that they answer to her. If you combine all of those factors, I can't imagine she's not stripping a whole lot of unambiguously abusive practices away from the Circle.
Cassandra, I imagine, keeps much of the old system the way it was. But I imagine she's making it harder for the templars to get away with a lot of the abuse they used to get up to, if nothing else.
If Cassandra and Leliana are divine. Any changes for mages gets undermined. This because Vivienne wants to a queen. She isn't the Divine and she can't be the empress of Orlais.
She can however take over the circles of magi. After the explosion at the conclave. Most of cirle hierarchy is gone. This leaves Vivienne. She preys on their fears and they worship her. She uses this position to oppose Cassandra or Leliana.
As Divine Vivienne rules over everything. She gives the illusion of freeeom. Until someone crosses her. Then she tightens the noose.
So pretty much things eventually go back to square one. Mainly because the conflicts between the politicians, Chantry, Templars and Mages. Are essential to the plot ot the series. .
I am curious though as to the next game. Who will be Divine in the default storyline. though that's a question for another post.
@Chaos9059763 Your bias for Viv is self-evident and I won't debate that. In fact I used to have a negative view of her myself. But I will get into some basic facts that need to be said to show you that none of the Divines let things be. They ALL change things for the Better.
Mages...Circle Mages. You think they ALL want Freedom don't you? You're Wrong. Viv is NOT the only one of her kind. The vote for Independence from the Chantry was a 51-49 split based on the decision of the Few over the Many. The Loyalist faction the Pro-Chantry/Pro-Templars/Pro-Circle faction is the Second BIGGEST faction. The Libertarians those Pro-Freedom at Any and All costs are a relatively small faction compared to the others given it's younger state and the perceived notion that it's filled with Demon Summoners and Terrorists...Guess what it is Kinloch and Kirkwall proves that. The Biggest faction is the Moderate Aequitarians which would logically be split down the middle whether they're Pro-Freedom or Pro-Circles.
Given the numbers that make up these factions, Given actual Andrastian beliefs these people have been taught and accept. The Majority of Mages ARE Pro-Circle. Viv always rises to power because the Circle Mages themselves are NOT all Freedom-Seekers or Terrorists or seeking to fight for some vague notion of Liberty at the cost of hundreds to thousands of lives. Most Mages just want Peace and Safety. Whether you like Viv is irrelevant she offered exactly that with her rebuilt Circles. Safe from what? Corrupt Templars, Corrupt Seekers, Evil Commoners, Evil Grand Clerics and Revered Mothers that all need scapegoats for the War and Rebellion. Viv rebuilding the Circles is providing Protection to those that would die otherwise the Non-Combatant and Loyalist Mages. She is also giving them a Voice that would be drowned out by the Libs in the College.
Templars...Are just as corrupt and vile as any Mage could be. They're a problem too lest we forget their acts of rebellion and mass killings. Or those that became Red Templars. Cass is no longer going to abuse their Leash no longer going to force them to submit to Chantry rulings (the Cause of the Red Templars rise to power). Viv is tightening the Leash she's not going to give them the chance to Rebel again they WILL listen to a Mage Divine they WILL stop their Abuses of the Mages or pay with their lives. Lily outright Disbands the Order this is the biggest mistake given you CAN'T kill an Ideal the Anti-Magic beliefs and phobias will live on in the hearts and minds of the Majority of the Population from Cleric to Commoner...They'll rebuild the Order that's Unmerciful Highly Corrupt with No Regulation at all. It's in fact Lily who puts the Mages in the most amount of danger by getting rid of the Circles and getting rid of anyway to regulate the Order of Mage-Killers targeting the now easy to find Free Mages.
Forcing Change major systematic change has NEVER been peaceful in Real Life...Ever. It always Bloody to someone somewhere. After Slavery was ended...Racial Tensions and Political Corruption skyrocketed. After the Fall of Empires city-states and nations committed petty war after petty war. When you FORCE change upon a system that has existed for 800 years like the Andrastian Chantry's Templar Order and Circle of Magi...You NEED to realize you're creating enemies and tensions are going to exist for a long long time before Peace is actually known.
Whether you like it or not a good chunk of People LOVE the Chantry, LOVE the Circles, Love the Order. Yes they're going to fight back when you try to destroy these things. You're Targeting their Livelihoods and Ideals...Even their own lives for something as petty and unrealistic as complete Freedom=Anarchy/Chaos.
Also those that don't fight and kill just Peacefully Reform the Old Structures aren't threats. If there's options now like the College AND Circles WITHOUT the Rite of Tranquility. Then the Mages aren't forced into anything they have a choice more than ever politically. Which is what is stated in the Viv epilogue.
Cass= Mages have Political Autonomy working OUTSIDE and more importantly ALONGSIDE the Chantry instead of submitting to it. Same thing with the Templars.
Lily= Mages have Freedom to do what they like. The Vast Majority of them WANT Circles and to Help the common man instead of making enemies with them...Which means following Andrastain Teachings and Ideals! Templars are Disbanded which is going to lead to their Radicalization and Dissidence.
Viv= Mages given Political Rights, Safer in the Circles, Allowed to function in society simply under Regulation...Anyone who's Anti-Regulation is a Terrorist this has been proven with Mage Extremists from Venatori to Anders. I do not think Viv is wrong to Regulate and Control Magic...Sadly men like Malcolm Hawke (Moral and Ethical Andrastian Apostates) are the Exception to the Rule NOT the Rule itself. Templars are Re-Leashed to the Will of the Chantry specifically to a Mage Divine they will NOT be rebelling or committing further abuses anytime soon.
No matter what Mages are given more Freedom than Pre-Rebellion Chantry. The Rite of Tranquility is no longer going to be the goto given a Cure is known and WILL be studied and one way or another that knowledge will become Public. Kirkwall is NOT going to happen again the General Populace and Chantry will now be keeping a very close eye on the Mages and Templars both from here on out. People like Orsino and Meredith will not be allowed to rise ranks.
"She'd have been alright as Divine. I don't think she's strong-willed enough to make things happen, though."
Perhaps. She does have the gift to have hundreds *thousands?* join her and bust out into song though. That has to be worth something...
I wasn't going to reply to this mess at first, but alas...
<<Lily outright Disbands the Order this is the biggest mistake given you CAN'T kill an Ideal>>
That sounds a bit like TIM. *lol*
Eh, did the templars ever lived up to this supposed lofty ideal? If so, someone might consider at least trying to get rid of that ideal regardless.
<<Even their own lives for something as petty and unrealistic as complete Freedom=Anarchy/Chaos.>>
Some many wrong things in one sentence make me cinge.
Since when is freedom petty?
Anarchy means absence of rulership. The word you are looking for might be "anomie", but even that isn't quite equivalent to vague "chaos". I'm aware that "anarchy=chaos" is a popular misconception usually pushed to discredit, and that's the reason while I'm fond of correcting that.
Freedom=/=Chaos. Otherwise certain types of US citizens would be promoting "chaos" given how much they harp about "freedom", no?
<<Lily=Mages have Freedom to do what they like. Help the common man instead of making enemies with them...Which means following Andrastain Teachings and Ideals!>>
They are not free to do whatever they like, nobody is. Being "helpful"=/=being andrastian as well, unless you want to claim that only andrastians can be "helpful" which is... pretty disturbing, to say the least.
<<Anyone who's Anti-Regulation is a Terrorist this has been proven with Mage Extremists from Venatori to Anders.>>
Yup, everyone who's not with me... that's still pretty totalitarian, just like before.
"Submit or die" 2.0? Besides, "Regulation" can mean anything if so desired, from having mages obey the same basic laws as everyone else to Qunari modus operandi.
<<Templars are Re-Leashed to the Will of the Chantry specifically to a Mage Divine they will NOT be rebelling or committing further abuses anytime soon.>>
I'm not sure if Viv's intention behind tightly leashing the templars to her own authority is to prevent abuse. That might be a useful side-effect, but I suspect it is more to have her personal band of enforcers to deal with any possible dissent, especially among mages.
<<Kirkwall is NOT going to happen again the General Populace and Chantry will now be keeping a very close eye on the Mages and Templars both from here on out.>>
I'm not so sure that a thing like that will never ever happen. Also, "Chantry and populace" watching templars and (especially) mages has be a thing before as well, so bruh.
Last thing... the politcal monikers ascribed to the candidates previously have been a tad bit off in my view. On a two-axis graph of progressive vs. conservative and libertarian vs. authoritarian, I'd place Cassandra into a more conservative region, Leliana as more progressive and Viv as clearly authoriarian.
What do you think?