154 Votes in Poll
^ Yeah, that's a good point. But that was more on the lower levels of recruitment. I meant more on the higher levels.
The higher levels are usually where corruption is born. Those with more influence and power are usually the ones to abuse it rather than those with less.
"Why don't you include the possibility that perhaps the Chantry and it's Founder(meaning it's Leader) Drakon weren't as fanatical or Anti-Elvhen as what's been led to believe?"
I see no reason to. Andrastian goals are clearly stated: religious world domination and the original Kordillus apparently wanted to make that happen -badly-. Perhaps he had no issues with the elves as a race, but he surely had issues with them having the "wrong" beliefs.
"Perhaps Drakon DID in fact give these other faiths a chance to peacefully convert? Perhaps it was those faiths that were in fact the hostile ones?"
"Come quietly or die" still would not sound very peaceful. The rest is straw-grasping to me, as the codex entries concerning "Forgotten Faiths" are written by a chantry scholar, who would have gleefully pointed out any hostility about those factions. Instead, we merely got some low-key passive-aggresiveness.
"We know for a fact the Dalish faith is both hostile and in fact wrong because they're worshipping false gods."
Now your are being ridiculous, at least by "Pro-Atheist" standards. Dalish faith, as far as we know, is not or at least less hostile than Andrastianism. It does not demand humans or anyone else to submit to it, while still calling those other races lesser beings (Andrastianism does both), it merely does not mention/acknowledge them at all, which isn't surprising because the origins of Dalish faith lie in a time when humans were not present on Thedas.
The "Creators" are not more or less legit than the Maker. There _are_ no "true" or "false" gods. Divinity is not an inherent feature, it is (merely) attributed by worshippers. "Gods" only exist in the minds of their believers and nowhere else.
"We also know for a fact some cults worshipped Darkspawn (That is automatically evil and foolish)."
Well, they got themselves killed, so what? Too dumb to live.
"That there's a cult that seeks to end the entire world to bring about "paradise". NONE of those religions can claim neutrality or that they seek peaceful coexistence."
I guess you are also referring to the Order of the Fiery Promise? Yes, they are insane. On the other hand, I always wondered why, despite repeated attempts, they could not be wiped out for good.
In case of the Daughters of Song, there is no indication that they did anything hostile. The Dales might not wanted much/any interaction with the Orlesians, which I can't really blame them for given centuries of slavery at human hands and Orlais pushing itself to be the next grand human empire, but we have no indication that the Dales sought to subjugate (andrastian) humans, especially not culturally or religiously. I don't think of isolation as a declaration of active hostilities.
"Perhaps just maybe the Chantry isn't perfect but neither is it as oppressive or evil as many claimed."
Andrastianism constantly claims to be "right", and to be the -only ones- who are "right" and then they go on lecturing people about hubris... Also, if your dogma claims that the faith must be spread to everyone and everywhere, so that your god will/might return, the logical consequence is that everyone who refuses conversion needs to be killed.
Lots of players apparently hold that the Qun is oppressive and totalitarian up to eleven. I also do, though I think organised Andrastianism as we saw it until now scores on the same table. Both think that their belief is the best/only truth and demand everyone to submit, seeking control and having hardly any tolerance for dissent. Both sides brainwash their subjects and hammer their ideology into the heads from young age. Both hate magic, but are still not above using it. The differences lie in their methods. The Qun scores higher on the totalitarism scale, the Chantry covers that with racism or "humans above others". It is hardly the Qun's fault that it is better with organising invasions, while andrastian countries are busy fighting each other. *lol* Lots of players reconise the Qun for what it is and are wary, while giving the Chantry a pass, and that's pretty dangerous as well.
TL:DR Both are major oppressors, and an existential threat to any other culture. The "evil" part depends on mood.
"Amerdian WAS protecting his people...He was literally peacekeeping by working with the Chantry instead of against it. Instead of going to war with them over beliefs he chose to work for them obviously trying to fix the system from within (if it had problems)."
To be honest... I guess his attempts were doomed to fail eventually. I don't think that the Chantry would have accepted the existence of elven beliefs or even some syncretist crossover like Ameridan himself apparently practised. Every interpretation that isn't within the narrow accepted standards is to be removed, otherwise loaded terms like heresy would not exist.
"But that's the thing the Chantry WAS NOT hostile to the Elves until AFTER Drakon is gone and when they refused to help combat the Second Blight. It was Drakon's Son and a racist Divine that called for the Exalted Marches on the Dales..."
I guess our take on hostility is different then. To me, the Chantry's continuous smear campaigns ("Them knive-ears sacrifice children!!!!!") and passive-aggressive attempts at proselytisation that occured beforehand are a type of hostility, or at least more of a hostility than self-isolation.
"How much do you wanna bet Drakon didn't have a good relationship with his son or that Divine? It seems obvious to me the Chantry wasn't as racist or extremist when it first started...It only became that way after many years of racial crimes on BOTH sides."
I don't take any bets in this case. Again, I wanted to know more about Drakon's and Ameridan's relations. Right now, most impressions point at Kordillus Drakon being a war-mongering zealot. Andrastianism -is- inherently racist, or at least it considers non-humans to be "lesser", while interestingly making a cop-out excuse for the dwarves, presumeably to avoid souring relations and endangering the supply of Lyrium. Being all giddy and zealous about their "great" new beliefs is pretty much a trademark of any newly established faith or cult.
"P.S. Also I'm an Pro-Elvhen Pro-Magic Pro-Mage Freedom Pro-Atheism Anti-Chantry Anti-Qun Anti(ish)-Templars player."
You do realise that you went rather "Chantry-Apologist" in your first response?
"But it's become obvious that all sides have their flaws and pros. That no one in Thedas is morally superior to the other because they've all commited what should be considered war crimes."
I haven't said that the Dales were morally superior. I merely think that they are somewhat less shitty. The elves did have a slight edge in my view though - they did not want to force their faith stuff on the humans, which cannot be said about the andrastians. My issue stems from the fact that no one bothered to explain how those two guys ended up being friends - and that the blame is solely put on the Dales and their apparent inaction. Would Orlais have lifted a finger to save those dirty heathens who refused to adopt the Chantry's "enlightened" beliefs? I guess not. Orlais wanted to expand and the elves were in the way. Bloody sure that Orlais would have waited until the Dales expended themselves against the Darkspawn before moving in, finishing off both and then occupying the lands. Is that petty and short-sighted? Of course, but no one ever claimed that imperialist zealots have to be reasonable.
"Given we've so little info on the guy who knows? He might not of hated the Elves at all just wanted to punish them for Red Crossing...Which was a horrendous crime the Elves made with no excuses. Though the genocide of many Elves and the losing of their homeland was a bit too much of punishment. If I was Emperor I'd simply want the heads of the specific Elvhen Soldiers that did it."
Of course, cultural genocide is a totally acceptable "punishment" for a bunch of enemy troops defending themselves against an enraged mob... Did you do the quest to recover the records from Din'an Hanin?
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Death_of_Elandrin
(italics copy-pasted as they were, bold emphasis by me)
"So we sought to stop you. With haste, Siona led her people to the village. There we would challenge you. There we would bring you back to us... or to justice. In the dim of a moonless night, she saw Siona through the trees. She raced toward Siona, a cry on her lips and something in her hand. Siona's arrow flew. So the woman fell, the name "Elandrin" dying on her lips, daisies slipping from her grasp."
>My take on this situation: Bad visibility that night. The elves mistook the human girl's flowers for a weapon and her approach for an attack.
"The men of the village suspected the girl's flight, and heard the scream. They fell upon the elves, but were no match.
Siona's haste surpassed your own. You knelt beneath the trees, blood-soaked petals clinging to your clothes from a final embrace. When more humans came, you would not be moved—and they would not listen."
>Strikes me as the mob attacking the elves in response, so the elves killed them in self-defense. Villagers are no match for trained soldiers.
"Their arrows found your heart and you fell beside her. We found your body in the river where they cast you aside. She was taken by her own. It was not the end, but your part is past.
Rest now as our honored brother once more. A wreath of daisies at your brow, the letter she carried in your hand. Whoever guides you, whoever guides her, may your souls meet once more in the Beyond."
>Obviously the humans did not care about that knife-eared lover. They might not have known, just like Elandrin's fellows, but they did not care regardless.
"Adalene,
What care have I for gods I have never seen, for a Maker I do not know? Let others distract themselves with such lofty concerns. I know only this life, I have seen only this world, and I care only for you.
Perhaps your priestess distrusts the sincerity of "uncivilized" elves. If she must hear me say I will follow the Maker, so be it. Your god intercedes as much as ours. My life will not change.
I will return in two weeks' time. My heart longs for you 'til then, and will remain with you forever after.
Elandrin"
>Even he assumes that the Chantry would not accept a non-believer! He just does not care (anymore).
@Buckeldemon It's obvious you hate the Chantry and are close-minded that you can't even comprehend that perhaps what you believe might not be as foolproof as you think. The Evanuris are self-proclaimed "gods" that enslaved their own kind FORCING them to worship them...What else are we to call them but false gods? Using the words false and god doesn't negate Atheism in any form (Also you have no right to claim what another's faith or lack there of is). I never even mentioned the Maker at all in comparsion. No legit proof of that being's existence at all.
How did I go Chantry-Apologist in anyway nowhere did I negate their crimes...If you read my comments you'd see I mentioned every one that's been CONFIRMED with evidence to have happened and then condemed the actions. Just because I don't have a massive hate-boner against them that prevents me from looking at things logically doesn't mean I support them.
The Elves did commit a massacre of innocent people which caused the war to erupt that's proven fact...A racist Divine AFTER Drakon is dead called for the Exlated March on the Dales that's a proven fact...The Evanuris are False God-like beings they're worshipped as true gods when in fact they're simply powerful mage overlords that's a proven fact...Ameridan was a Dalish and Andrastian believing BOTH faiths were true and a Mage that was given the position of Leader of the Inquisition at that as well that's a proven fact...Solas is a self proclaimed false god that's a proven fact. Racism and Prejudice exists in any skintone and creed on earth...Why do you believe it's any different for those with different ears? The series has show us both evil humans and elves as well as good humans and elves...Sometimes they were theists othertimes atheists or doubters. Ameridan's story isn't a story of betrayal...It's the fucking opposite it was one of hope and compassion. It shows us that the Elves were never just innocents or the Chantry just villains...That instead the simple truth is they're both simply peoples that came into conflict...History forgetting the good only remembering the bad or just lying. A major theme of Inquisition is good intentions versus corruption.
It's exactly like Solas said in the end of Trespasser. You want it simple to see only black and white...But that ain't the truth it never was nor will it ever be.
Believe what you will...You're comment is too long to read through entirely and I don't care to chat with someone completely stuck in their ways that refuses to acknowledge any form of inbetween grey area. I don't care for extremists...If that somehow makes me a Chantry-Supporter or Theist then perhaps they're in fact the good guys after all! (They're not neither are the Dalish. It really truely is as simple as both did wrong. Ameridan and what happened to the couple of of Red Crossing prove this directly.)
Also the Red Crossing is that those fucking Elvhen Soldiers murdered a women who loved their brother...Left the brother to die...Then in some attempt at "justice" for the situation they CAUSED decided to mass murder all humans...Women, Children and Elders of that village. The ONLY prejudice being shown against Andrastian Humans being barbaric and vile from the Elves perspective. If you think the female dalish leader murdered the lover on accident it is you who're the racist fool. The racism was from the elves they massacred innocents because of their race and faith alone. The letter even confirms the leader realized her mistakes in the end. She was the bad guy entirely. Those villagers that killed the good elf thought he was the murderer...Because the other bad elves left him there alone to be killed because of his "treason"...Which she directly admits. (By asking his soul to forgive her!)
How the fuck does that not show the bad in the Dalish? They caused and condemned the atheist non-racist to death! Sure the humans killed him but it wasn't about race it was about how the other elves fucking framed him! The Dalish caused the war because of their racism no question...Just like how Zathrian caused the plague of Werewolves in Ferelden!
"It's obvious you hate the Chantry"
Perhaps. So what? It is an organisation that, in my view, has almost zero redeeming factors, or that those factors don't outweigh all the shit it does. At least one sister at Haven recognised that she does not need a Grand Cleric (or Divine) to tell her what to do (or believe).
"The Evanuris are self-proclaimed "gods" that enslaved their own kind FORCING them to worship them...What else are we to call them but false gods?"
"Megalomanic asshats" is the term I would use. "False" or "true" gods just invites people to squabble.
"(Also you have no right to claim what another's faith or lack there of is)."
I'm claiming that faith or lack thereof is an individual thing. So if someone believes (for whatever reasons) that -something- "special" with specific attributes exists, it does for them. But not for me or anybody else who does not believe in the exact same way.
"A racist Divine AFTER Drakon is dead called for the Exlated March on the Dales that's a proven fact..."
The push for conversion was there before. And yet again, it is right in the Chant. So the Chantry tried to send missionaries and got mad when the elves did not want them (which is their frickin' right!). That alone qualifies as some sort of hostility to me, again.
"The Evanuris are False God-like beings they're worshipped as true gods when in fact they're simply powerful mage overlords that's a proven fact..."
The Evanuris were simply powerful rulers who demanded worship.
"Solas is a self proclaimed false god that's a proven fact."
Solas actually rejected the notion of being seen as a god, as this would have put him on the same level as those guys he rebelled against.
"The series has show us both evil humans and elves as well as good humans and elves...Sometimes they were theists othertimes atheists or doubters."
When do we see elves who are not andrastian (or do not care about faith at all), who are is not depicted as racist, discarded as incompetent, reckless or even insane (Merrill) or just dying like flies? Atheist/"I don't care" humans are pretty rare as well. The only human companion that I can think of right now is Isabela
"It shows us that the Elves were never just innocents or the Chantry just villains...That instead the simple truth is they're both simply peoples that came into conflict...History forgetting the good only remembering the bad or just lying."
That's the point, duh. I just tend to take the elven record on Red Crossing more seriously as it has more details then "Them elves slaughtered humanz!!!!". A fair share of Chantry records seem to be full of loaded language (heathen, heretic, infidel, barbarian...) and sometimes so ridiculously overblown (i.e. the claims that elves sacrificed chldren) that I have trouble taking them as much more than propaganda pieces.
"You're comment is too long to read through entirely and I don't care to chat with someone completely stuck in their ways that refuses to acknowledge any form of inbetween grey area."
Oh, thanks for pointing out that talking to you is a waste of time as well. Besides, don't accuse me of not seeing the grey areas if you insist that the elves killed the people of Red Crossing for the shit and giggles. As far as I'm considered, it was a perfect example of "failure to communicate", both from Elandrin's part and his fellow Emerald Knights. They did not try to talk to him earlier and he snuck out in the dark raising suspicion.
"I don't care for extremists..."
Yeah, that is why I usually don't give the Chantry the benefit of doubt. They -are- single-minded extremists. For the record, I don't want humans exterminated or something like that. All I would ask for is for the andrastians (and Qun) to leave others alone. But alas, both have a conversion mandate...
@Buckeldemon "has almost zero redeeming factors" Not true. "or that those factors don't outweigh all the shit it does" Fair enough.
Get over the fucking terminology it's used to describe something...You can't debate god/s or divinity if you refuse to acknowledge the words. You don't just say Zeus was a dick worshipped by Greeks for no reason...You call him an Olympian God to explain what he is in the tales.
"The push for conversion was there before. And yet again, it is right in the Chant. So the Chantry tried to send missionaries and got mad when the elves did not want them (which is their frickin' right!). That alone qualifies as some sort of hostility to me, again."
Do you not understand the key difference between trying to peacefully convert someone versus trying to genocide an entire race? You said it your fucking self they were missionaries not soldiers in Drakon's time! Only AFTER Drakon was dead were racial and religious tensions escalated to the point Elves were killed...AFTER their racially-motivated massacre of innocents. Give me fucking proof Drakon himself hated the Elves...How the fuck was he BEST Friends with a Dalish Elvhen Mage who believed in his own gods then if so? All evidence we know of claim Drakon was only interested in uniting HUMANS into a single religion and empire. (Just so you don't get confused I'm not saying he was right to try to do so...I'm simply saying what his goal was.)
It was a Divine and his Son (Children are NOT their parents...Trust me on this) that called for an Exalted March and only the Divine is proven to be racist and bigoted not the Emperor. It's obvious that Drakon and Ameridan wouldn't commit an Exalted March on the Dales...That doesn't mean their successors felt the same. Which only proves that people are inherently corrupt not the Chant itself...Yes this time I'm defending it because I'm an cynical individualist that knows where true evil comes from...It ain't from a book or song it's from the minds and hearts of people themselves of any creed you can think of.
"Solas actually rejected the notion of being seen as a god, as this would have put him on the same level as those guys he rebelled against."
The term False God is not negated by that admittance...The Dalish themselves still VIEW him as a God. So to did the Elves of Yore he freed. I don't understand why you despise these words...It's not like using these terms makes you religious. Like I said he doesn't see himself as a god because he's not one simply false.
Merrill isn't insane or evil. Zathrian became evil BUT the key thing there was he became evil for damned good reasons. Velanna was simply racist but honestly the hostility of humans and elves is high it's understable why she blamed humans plus most of the humans she killed were bandits. The series has never depicted it as white or black...You might come to that conclusion but the themes are telling you to look at it from a more grey viewpoint. WE the player characters can be Atheist or Theist...At least the Warden and Inquisitor can be...And they can be Human or Elf. You should count those options too. Also Morrigan isn't evil and she's atheist.
We don't need to take the Elvhen or Human view of Red Crossing...We know the fucking truth! The Elves murdered the entire village and betrayed one of their own over racist beliefs. The Human telling of it was more right, The Dalish telling of it was lies. The direct evidence of the Elves crimes are from an Elf's viewpoint! If you try to justify the murder of that town or believe the humans were in the wrong there...You're literally a racist fool and evil.
Humans ARE or at least WERE Barabarians both in real life and in DA. Heretics just means against religious belief. Not really insulting terms.
Also if you understand the grey and yet continue to only condemn one side in the conflict...You're an asshole at least that simple.
How in the fuck does them not trusting their own brother in any way justify them MASS MURDERING that entire fucking village?! She murdered that women on purpose. She left her brother to die on purpose. She in her foolish state of racism and regret called for the deaths of hundereds of innocents! She caused a war that destoryed her people's homeland. It's clear where the fault lies...It's not even a debate only one side commited hostile actions against the other there. Just because greyness exists doesn't fucking excuse evil itself. "Evil IS Evil...Lesser, Greater, Middling".
If you believe Leliana or Cassandra are extremists you're wrong. If you believe Wynne is you're wrong. Elthina wasn't her sin was moderation to the point of stagnation. There's been two extremists we've seen from the Chantry Meredith and Cullen...The latter goes on to realize his mistakes. If you're speaking about dead people they really can't effect the Chantry anymore. If we're speaking about Viv I'd hate her as Divine and will never make her one as long as I live...But it wasn't the Chantry that made her bigoted.
@FlamesOfChaos13 you seriously need to calm down with the expletives in your writing and do not insult other users. This is a place for civil debate, and I expect nothing less.
In addition, you and @Buckeldemon have gone way off-topic, so I suggest you take a breather and begin a new thread for discussion or just drop it.
@Steele-Wool You're right I apologize and shall stop.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Alright. I'm dropping it.
What do you think?