At the end of the inquisition, whether we banished or allied with the wardens or not, we are shown that there is a glimpse of possible civil war brewing in Anderfels. It would seem that some of the causes of this fracture are reclusiveness of the Grey Wardens and their political intrigues such as their interest in how the warden commander of Ferelden owns the vigil's keep and surroundings (and possibly having a warden as a king.)
Then I wondered who would be the warden that would ultimately lead this revolution? Could it Warden, Alistair, Loghain or Stroud? The most plausible one would be Alistair or Loghain as they are both veterans of 5th Blight and have shown themselves during the inquisition. I always hope for the return of the Warden but given how he is treated only as codexes, letters and some mentions in past two games show that he will not likely to be presented at all (I hope that they just make DLC or something for Dragon Age: Origins as a fan service like going to the west or looking for vigilance again.) Stroud is... Stroud. I did not know he even existed until I saw his page in this wiki. Or some non-specific person like a new warden commander of Ferelden from the Last Flight.
So what're your thoughts? Will there be actually a civil war that would affect the upcoming game? Or maybe it could be a plot for a far-future since there is already a rumor of 6th blight in the North(from Origins) and no message from Weisshaupt?
They disappear around the same time as those in Orlais, Unless the devs have some short of plan to have them return and have a whole "wait what happened, and what do you mean we have to leave Ferelden*" I think it is likely they did join those in Orlais
Griffon is a cool title. Here are the problems I see with it being the High Constable.
The HC is the second to the FW. The writers would have to credibly explain why someone's second would oppose their leader.
Are we sure that it is an electable position? If you are the FW, the last thing you would want is your second to be an opposition of you. I would find it more likely that the FW chooses who becomes HC.
The role of HC is local recruitment and as an Ambassador to the King. It is a Non-combatant role. It would make sense that both the FW and HC fighting days are behind them.
It is a good point about the *conditional* relationship between the HoF and King Alistair. There is probably no relationship stronger or as unique between those two in comparison to other Wardens w/a Monarch. That could be seen as a viable threat to the FW.
The OWC if they don't go to Ferelden doesn't work because;
Stroud was the only one to go against Clarel. For the OWC to become Warden Commander of Ferelden. Then the OWC would have had to have been maybe a step or two away from being the WC in Orlais. They would have a senior position. It is most likely that they knew what Clarel was doing and went along with it. If you are a Warden that went along w/Clarel; I find it a hard time believing that anyone would follow you.
The OWC can't be a Mage. There is no way they could have survived the events of DA:I if they were a Mage. (Most the Wardens of Orlais died anyways, it is safe to say that they would have most likely died no matter if they were a Mage or not.)
"As for the HOF and FW, the impression I got was that the one during the early 9:30s didn't much care for him at all. Though we hear little (like, next to nothing) of what the FW thinks of the HOF, and I think there's a new FW, which resets opinions."
I think this was a colossal error by BioWare. *Conditionally* A Warden survives slaying the Archdemon. That is unprecedented in the history of the Wardens. The Order is very protective of their secrets. Them just shrugging their shoulders at that and not investigating that is beyond bonkers in my mind. Even if the FW didn't care about knowing, there would be plenty of experienced Wardens that "know" when a Warden slays an Archdemon, that the Warden dies. This would definitely be a "thing."
It doesn't matter if 3 or 10,00 people know. The HoF was in charge. They would be the first person asked. If they didn't like their answer, then they would ask Alistair/Loghain. Even if you don't know anything. This bit of info following says it all. They defeat the Archdemon, fanfare, party and celebrations. Everybody sticks around. Except the powerful mage. Who ghosts everybody immediately after the fight. *Unless that is Morrigan as that dog/coyote whatever at the last ceremony," If a Warden was to survive killing an Archdemon. Then magic would be the most obvious *only* reason for that happening. That would be the obvious lead to pursue.
This would be another controversial aspect of the HoF or the OWC. Conditionally, they conscripted Anders into the Order. It wouldn't be that surprising if people placed at least some blame on them from the damage that the Mage-Templar War caused. (I've never not conscripted Anders in DA:A. How do they explain him being in DA:2 if he wasn't a Warden?)
My point wasn't that the First Warden would be successful in tracking down Morrigan and Kieran. I have no idea, all I know about the First Warden is that their is one. I find it incredibly false that any First Warden would not take any action in discovering how either of the two Wardens survived while the Archdemon did not.
Sure, the distance is far and they have plenty of other things to tend to. *This is why you also have a Second in Command, for the stuff you should handle, you have someone to take your place. Or you have them handle it.* However; I think the revelation that a Warden survived slaying an Archdemon would be too important not to find out why. There is no reason the FW couldn't delegate that to someone else to handle either. What the HoF did *conditionally* was unprecedented. The Wardens have their secrets and they very much fiercely protect those secrets.
Sure, perhaps Mistress Woolsey is sent as a Spy. Perhaps some or all of the other Wardens at the Keep were sent as spies to try to get info about how the HoF and Alistair/Loghain survived killing the Archdemon. At this time, we have no way of knowing one way or another though. If this was the FW's plan, it failed spectacularly.
Here is the problem I see with this Grey Warden Civil War. Would be the player be allowed to side with the traditionalists among the Grey Wardens? I think finding a cure/treatment for the Calling is a bad idea. I don't think that the Order needs any changes either. Just don't be like Clarel and make exceedingly horrible decisions. To be fair, I do need more information on what both sides are fighting for.
^I agree that it is unforunate that we are never given confirmation of the FW or any of the upper echelon of the order trying to figure out how the Warden survived after killing the archdemon. However, the reason for this is because the Warden only conditionally does that. Awakening was written in such a way as to accommodate three different types of Wardens: OWCs, Wardens where Loghain or Alistair died killing the archdemon, and Wardens who performed the DR. In the latter two scenarios, no investigation is necessary. Thus, the writers didn't mention it.
If the FW can have someone rule in his place, why can't he also send someone to the Warden in his place? What exactly does he gain out of meeting the Warden face to face that he could not obtain via spies? I don't think there's any advantage to the FW meeting the Warden personally over simply sending someone else.
"I think this was a colossal error by BioWare. *Conditionally* A Warden survives slaying the Archdemon. That is unprecedented in the history of the Wardens. The Order is very protective of their secrets. Them just shrugging their shoulders at that and not investigating that is beyond bonkers in my mind. Even if the FW didn't care about knowing, there would be plenty of experienced Wardens that "know" when a Warden slays an Archdemon, that the Warden dies. This would definitely be a "thing.""
I could see that being a product of Fifth Blight skepticism/dismissal, politics, a combination of the two, or something else. "This 'Hero of Ferelden' slew the Archdemon and lived? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Regardless, if the Wardens now own holdings in Amaranthine..."
The Orlesian Wardens apparently were asking questions as to how the Warden survived in the epilogue, with Alistair basically going "Ummmmmmmmmmmmm.... well....... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..." and Loghain being stoically silent on the issue, presumably using Loghain-Orlesian relations as a shield. And I think if neither did the DR, they really don't know either.
It's also possible that the First Wardens know how to survive Blights, but I have my doubts about that being the case. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, though (it does seem like the higher up you go, the more secrets there are). I don't know if any of the other 4 Wardens to slay the Archdemon were also First Wardens.
And that also leads to "Who knows what?" since we the player/reader/viewer know things that the average resident in Thedas doesn't.
"Awakening was written in such a way as to accommodate three different types of Wardens"
Yeah, that's been a feature regarding a number of prominent choices, some which are easier to bring to a unified point than others. One advantage of being non-Wardens for a significant portion of the timeline is that it (questions regarding the HOF) can quietly Exit Stage Left where it gets resolved there in some way. I mean, the Fifth Blight was what, 15 years prior to the latest date in the timeline? At this point, while I would suspect curiosities still exist, it's likely that it isn't as high a priority anymore.
I could see it being a factor in the potential Grey Warden Civil War, but it's likely that the Hero of Ferelden's other actions (getting involved in a number of things during the Blight) are a motivating factor in that conflict, especially if its ideological (interventionism vs. neutrality). The HOF being kingmaker on 2 separate occasions isn't dependent on whether or not he survived Denerim.
And the rub is, the HOF himself isn't needed in this war. His actions and legacy, sure, but the civil war can start and rage without him.
In the epilogue, Alistair and Loghain mentions that the wardens send messages asking why they all survive killing the Archdemon. Also, even if the wardens ask the HoF about that matter, doesn't seems the s/he reveals anything. In fact, the HoF doesn't seems pretty prone to share some delicate information, the codex in DAI mentions that the HoF never reveals the location of the Urn of Sacred Ashes to anyone and that mission about curing the Calling is only knowned by the romanced one who appears in DAI, not even the warden ally knows anything about why the HoF dissapear (if is knowned by any fereldan warden (or at least the fereldan Warden Constable), is never mentioned).
"It wouldn't be that surprising if people placed at least some blame on them from the damage that the Mage-Templar War caused."
At that point, Anders had separated himself from the wardens for at least 6-7 years. Also, Anders was in the Free Marches meaning, that even if people know that he's a warden, they will be thinking that Anders was a fereldan refugee conscripted by the marcher wardens.
^^Are you suggesting that perhaps the FW knew about the possibility of a Dark Ritual? That's an interesting thought. Flemythal wasn't around for the first, second, or third blights, but she was for the fourth. I've often wondered if she'd tried to make an OGB then and failed, or if she simply hadn't devised the ritual yet. If she did attempt it and failed, one reason for that failure might be because whatever wardens she approached refused her. Which would mean that at least one warden at some point learned about the DR. That would be a possible avenue for the FW knowing about the ritual.
"I could see that being a product of Fifth Blight skepticism/dismissal, politics, a combination of the two, or something else. "This 'Hero of Ferelden' slew the Archdemon and lived? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Regardless, if the Wardens now own holdings in Amaranthine..."
The wardens know for a fact that it was a blight. There's no doubt in the FW's mind that the blight was real. Whatever reasons he had for not investigating the Warden further (if he does the DR), that is not one of them.
If that's not what you meant by this, please clarify.
"Are you suggesting that perhaps the FW knew about the possibility of a Dark Ritual?"
Yeah, though I'm presently doubtful that's the case. If it's to be a twist/punchline in an upcoming installment, I wouldn't exactly be shocked at the revelation.
"If she did attempt it and failed, one reason for that failure might be because whatever wardens she approached refused her. Which would mean that at least one warden at some point learned about the DR. That would be a possible avenue for the FW knowing about the ritual."
That's also a possibility. For the First Warden to find out, she either had to approach the First Warden (or someone who would succeed to the position), or the declining Warden had to inform the First Warden. For the latter, I'd be curious as to how that conversation went, especially if it took place once the Blight was over.
"First Warden, you're not going to believe this: The night before we took down the Archdemon, this witch lady showed up and said that if I slept with her and killed the Archdemon I wouldn't die with it."
"I see you declined her offer. What'd you do?"
(Insert options of attempting to kill her, letting her leave, or successfully killing her here)
And this assumes that the declining Warden wasn't the one who made the blow.
"The wardens know for a fact that it was a blight. There's no doubt in the FW's mind that the blight was real. Whatever reasons he had for not investigating the Warden further (if he does the DR), that is not one of them."
Do they all the senior-tier Wardens sense the Archdemon about the same time? If the FW sensed the Archdemon, there's that, but if he didn't (he was far away, after all), then he could chalk it up to an unusually large darkspawn raid with a powerful darkspawn alpha leading them, seeing as Blights generally took decades or centuries.
"In fact, the HoF doesn't seems pretty prone to share some delicate information,"
And I wonder if he took any efforts to keep lids on that, too. Like, what do the senior-tier Wardens know about Avernus and his research? And as an aside, at this point, I don't think Avernus is alive anymore regardless.
"And I wonder if he took any efforts to keep lids on that, too. Like, what do the senior-tier Wardens know about Avernus and his research?"
In this particular case, the First Warden knows about Avernus' research, in DA2, there's a mission that involves letters, one of them is Avernus mentioning to the WC to send the currents results of the investigations to the FW, also Woolsey mention the whole Sophia Dryden's matter in DAA, meaning the wardens had a report of that. However, things like the DR and the Sacred Ashes, the HoF seems to keep to himself.
True though in Witch hunt doesn't the premise state that among the list of people that sent you to look for Morrigan among them was the wardens. While I will concede that this doesn't prove the order know of the ritual or the OGB as the OWC can get this mission to, it is a sign that the FW must suspect something at least, otherwise why bother sending the Warden Commander of Ferelden to find a witch of the wilds
"Awakening was written in such a way as to accommodate three different types of Wardens: OWCs, Wardens where Loghain or Alistair died killing the archdemon, and Wardens who performed the DR. In the latter two scenarios, no investigation is necessary. Thus, the writers didn't mention it."
Fair enough. However, this is the problem that can occur when the writers try to have a "one size fits all" solution for multiple storylines.
"If the FW can have someone rule in his place, why can't he also send someone to the Warden in his place? What exactly does he gain out of meeting the Warden face to face that he could not obtain via spies? I don't think there's any advantage to the FW meeting the Warden personally over simply sending someone else."
I said that the FW could delegate that responsibility to someone else. If I was the FW, I would only delegate that to someone who I could completely trust and rely on getting the job done. Every single Warden who "knows" that the GW that lands the killing blow on the Archdemon dies. It would be inevitable that they would ask each other why this knowledge ended up being wrong. The search for finding this question would keep going up the chain of command until it lands on the FW's doorstep. Whoever the FW is during that time, part of their legacy would be tied to how they handled the fact that a Grey Warden survived killing an Archdemon and what the FW did or didn't do on finding out how that was accomplished. Sure, he could delegate it to someone else to do it. I think that information is so important and because the FW is top dog. That the FW should oversee that personally. To each their own though.
The whole point of a Grey Warden taking the killing blow on a Archdemon is so that particular Old God Soul in the Archdemon perishes. The Warden lived and the blight is ended. The obvious question would be, What happened to that Old God Soul?
I figure that Flemythal knew of the "Dark Ritual" just how Solas knew how to take her soul from her. Because they are probably on the shortlist of most powerful mages who ever lived on Thedas.
I would be highly surprised if Duncan and Clarel didn't send messages to not only the FW, but to all the other regional Warden Commanders leading up to the events of Ostagar.
You never know with this series, perhaps The First Warden(s) knows that about the Dark Ritual. Even if they did know, I would be surprised if they didn't investigate who "claimed" the Old God Soul.
That makes sense that the Orlesian Wardens were asking Loghain and Alistair about that, *because that information has been told for nearly a thousand years in the Order.* Alistair asks you how you survive it. This is why I'm bullish that this topic would 100% be a "thing" within the Order.
I myself would not freely give the information that I helped conceive a child that the Old God's Soul attached to. If you told another Grey Warden that, wouldn't their initial reaction would be to kill the child and probably you? If a High Dragon can command the darkspawn with the OGS, why can't a humanoid do the same thing?
There were plenty of Ferelden nobles, commoners and soldiers at the Keep that knew Anders was recruited by the Warden Commander.